Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersPost by DMJoshihttp://www.nocklebeast.net/Links/native/wsjletter.html
Letter to the Editor, Wall Street Journal and Petition
Gene A. Nelson, Ph.D.
1820 Peters Colony Road E. Suite 5004
Carrollton, TX 75007-3726
May 6, 1997
Karen Cuddy - Editorial Submissions Editor
The Wall Street Journal
200 Liberty Street
New York NY 10281
(212) 416 3511 Voice
(212) 416 2658 FAX
Attached find a 168 word letter to the editor.
Missing the Point
The April 29, 1997 "Managing Your Career" article in the Wall Street
Journal (WSJ) by Hal Lancaster titled, "Landing a Job in the Sciences
Takes Some Creativity" was significant. It covered some of the reasons
why today's young scientists are having serious career difficulties.
However, a significant aspect was omitted. The factor is the extremely
high numbers of science and engineering (S&E) immigrants being
admitted to the U.S., especially since 1990. The high level of S&E
immigration displaces native - born Americans as well as earlier
generations of immigrants with younger, inexpensive, and "pliant"
highly - skilled workers. The displaced S&Es are typically able to
locate work that makes minimal use of their training, an extremely
wasteful and unwise practice. The concern about immigration was raised
in a September 4, 1996 WSJ article "Math Ph.D.s Add to Anti-Foreigner
Wave." We the undersigned request that additional press coverage be
given to this unprecedented labor situation. Many of us have websites
that provide additional background information, with computer address
information available on request.
Gene A. Nelson, Ph.D., Dallas, Texas
Shaun Black, Ph.D., Tyler, Texas
Bill Reed, President AEA, Fort Worth, Texas
Mark Nockleby, Santa Cruz, California
Linda Nelson, Dallas, Texas
Cynthia Walsh, J.D., Pueblo West, Colorado
John Attarian, Ph.D., Ann Arbor, Michigan
John Moore, Ph.D., Dallas, Texas
Robert A. Rivers. Editor, Engineering Manpower Newsletter
Arthur Sowers, Ph.D., Grasonville, Maryland
Artemis Lance, Ph.D., Kansas City, Missouri
Jackie Meyer, Ph.D., Bryan, Texas
Bryan Usevitch, Ph.D., El Paso, Texas
Wall Street Journal April 29, 1997 Page B1
Managing Your Career by Hal Lancaster
I suppose this post by Joshi was meant as an invitation for me to comment.
First of all, the date is at least 13 years ago, and I have had no
contact with any of those people for ten years or so, maybe.
The date of the letter does not matter,
Oh, yes it does. Its out of date. Quite long ago, too.
Nope, it does not, esp. since it is pretty much the same tune from
1997 until today.
On the contrary.
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art Sowersand neither does the fact that you
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?are no longer in contact with the folks.
Oh, yes it does. Whatever they are doing...is unimportant to me and I
know nothing of the people except a few. I do not even follow the
anti-immigration activity or news (other than what barely comes into
mainstream media, which is very little).
It does not matter to me whether or not you are in contact with these
people or not.
Then your view of me and what I think today is not depending on what I
say, right now, but on something you can't even prove I wrote and is
nothing more than hearsay, and you are unwilling to accept any
explanation I am offering now, today.
I understand your position now vis a vis the letter, and I thank you for
your time and patience in explaining it to me. However, let us continue
this discussion just a little more so that both positions, yours and
mine, are clear to all. :-)
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersI think what matters is Joshi's emphasis in his subject sentence: my
"ire...with immigrant tallent...will be buried with him" is an invention
of his imagination as well as an implication that immigrant tallent is
superior tallent. And, I take offense at that, but I know that is his
intetion.
I am not interested in Joshi's position (or that of anybody else) on
this issue as much as I am in your position.
You seem to be taking Joshi's position as stated in his subject sentence.
I usually do not pay as much attention to the subject line as much as I
do the contents of the post. On rare occasion I will change the subject
line. Let us get past that bit.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art Sowers_do_
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?matter, esp. since you are a signatory.
Now that I think of it, I'm not even sure I gave my permission for my
name to be on it. Can you or anyone else (who maybe is trying to dig up
some dirt on me) show me a statement signed by me that says I agree with
everything in that letter?
Are you saying that you're disavowing the contents of the letter? I am
not interested in digging dirt on anybody.
So far, your three responses above fit into what looks like has become
your own new personal witch hunt, against me, based on some loosely
handed around document which I can only remember small bits and pieces
of prior discussion.
YOU are "not interested in digging dirt on anyone?" And, yet, to even
find such a document, means that someone, here, really is "digging dirt"
or trying to dig dirt on me. And, among others, Joshi, has clearly been
running a smear campaign against me (and even more the USA, by the way)
since we started exchanging views. And, you have refused to recognize
that for what it is, and defending Joshi.
Oh... is this maybe "I'm an Indian and therefore I'll defend another
Indian, no matter whether he is right or wrong?"
I'll reiterate that there is no 'witch hunt', and I am not interested in
'digging dirt' on anybody. I am, however, curious about people's views,
and a public post (purportedly signed by you) with some interesting
contents piques my curiosity even more. Off the bat let me say that this
strange world (and stranger attitudes) of newsgroups is something that I
do not encounter in daily life. I have not encountered this for the most
part of several decades in the US, except for a little while after 9/11.
Much like you often say that such and such a thing is purely a matter of
discussion between two people, I'll say that Joshi's bashing of the US
(not always correct in my opinion) has been really one-sided. Y'all are
not exactly 'shrinking violets' or 'damsels in distress' that require an
assist or a knight. Y'all have given back, both in terms of tone and
content, as much have you've received. It is a draw as far as I am
concerned. Let's keep the discussion focused on the original issue - the
contents of the letter - and keep personal issues out.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersHow about "Real Indian" who, earlier this year, pasted my name on
several posts to these newsgroups (he "stole" several other names and
used them, too, on his posts). And, I know other people that this
happened to. So, are you going to hold a "kangaroo court" on me over
something you really can't prove? And, I didn't see very many Indians
jump to my rescue on that.
There is no kangaroo court,
Oh, really? You've got blinders on.
Sez you.
Post by Art Sowersand I am not particularly concerned about Real
1. You sure like Joshi a lot.
2. And, I guess the rest of that phrase you wrote really means: "I'm
just interested in Myself, and what Myself thinks and I don't care if
there is some injustice caused by someone else."
Bollocks! You can choose to interpret things any way you want to, but it
would be better for you to actually 'hear' what I have to say. You are
not talking to a 'chicken processing' guy. :-)
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?I just want to get to the bottom of the contents of that letter -
contents that bother me a tad.
Yeah, well when someone (I haven't seen it yet) around here appreciates
that there are some things going on that "bother me [too] a tad" then
I'll show some reciprocity.
Okay.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersAnd, if I did at the time, I think I would retract my name, and declare
that the letter does not now, nor ever did, represent any sentiments I
held on the subject matter.
This is fine with me.
OK. Then take it as "I would retract" and/or "declare that....".
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?What is your definition of 'immigrant'? Anyone who crosses over the
border (legally or illegally) into the US? _My_ definition of
'immigrant' is: one who crosses the border legally, settles down in
the US, pays taxes (all 8 million of them), eventually acquires US
citizenship,
So, are you a US citizen, now? Do you still hold Indian citizenship and
passport?
Yes.
Congratulations, and "Welcome to the USA"
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?India has no concept of dual citizenship.
I'm going to check on that. I heard that India did allow this.
Thanks! That's only the second time I've heard the 'Welcome' bit - the
overwhelming sentiment in this newsgroup seems to be 'Get thee back' ;-).
There is talk of dual citizenship often, but no, India does not permit
it. While this is no great loss (in more ways than one ;-)), first gen
'immigrants' do have families (near and extended) in the old country.
You've got to understand that. And no, lots of family members are
content being in India and are not hankering to get on a boat with an
H1b. :-)
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art Sowersand bloody votes (more
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?often than some of the born-in-the-USA candidates running for
political office), i.e., someone who calls US his/her home.
Oh, you want a medal for voting in our "democracy"?
I don't recall asking for a medal from you or anyone,
You were bragging about voting. Sounded like you wanted recognition for
that.
Nope.
Post by Art Sowersbut if you're handing
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?them out, why not? At least it means something more than people
running for political office without ever having participated in the
political process every time there was the opportunity.
Did you have someone in mind who is running for office but never voted?
Heh, Meg Whitman (Rep.) a candidate for governor of California, and
Carly Fiorina (Rep.) a candidate for senator from California. This
latter one singlehandedly destroyed HP - a fine Silicon Valley
institution built up nicely by two genuine human beings and
entrepreneurs. Carpetbaggers is what these folks are.
Post by Art SowersOr, are you saying, prejudicially, that anyone who does not vote is an
inferior being?
Nope. But one should take the time to haul it to the polls and exercise
one's right. Instead of being in protest mode all the time, take the
time to write in.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersI couldn't give a rat if
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?such folks are white, yellow, brown, or black.
I don't care either. I think I've said this enough that you should
remember by now.
The tone of the letter seems
Where? I know the skin color of several of the names; does that change
anything for you? Or were you "suggesting" that you are overly sensitive
to color issues?
I am not overly sensitive to color 'issues' as much as the letter
seems to suggest.
I'd like you to point to whatever sentence "suggests" that a 'color
"issue"' was a factor in the message of the letter.
Curiously enough, in one of the many exchanges I've had with you,
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?you did make an odd reference (cannot remember the exact context, but
Google is your friend :-)), and I asked you this question, 'What color
are Americans?'. I never did receive an answer to that question.
Oh, so now you want to play "Joshi" who loves to ask me loaded questions
along the lines which feed into his "kangaroo court" that: 1. USA is
bad, 2. I am "American Mongrel" and "cur" and whatever else continuously
pops into his head, and you remain silent about all this, all along?
No, it is not a 'kangaroo court' as much as it a reaction to something
that you said, perhaps inadvertently. I remember it struck me as very
odd coming from you.
Post by Art SowersWell, your question is so very odd because the only answer that I can
think of is "all colors." What the hell did you expect me to answer?
Why is it important if you are not "overly sensitive to color issues"?
Okay. I am not 'overly sensitive' to anything, but if I see references
to a spectrum, I'll ask, 'Why?'
Post by Art SowersSure seems to me like you really are. But, I've said, many times now,
that I'm sorry that racism exists and I'm sorry that anyone has to
endure it, but my impression is that it is less in the USA today than,
say, 50 years ago. Or, shall I have to make my "disclosure" sig file to
make you happy?
Heh, I had never encountered racism in the US (being on the left coast
metros helps :-)), until I got into this newsgroup. One gets very
interesting 'perspectives' here. Mostly due to anonymity, I guess. Heck,
too little time to worry about junk.
Post by Art SowersWon't do any good for Joshi who is unreachable on any level, though.
Perhaps you need to try another approach to 'reach' him, i.e., both you
guys need to set aside your egos, esp. since neither is talking to a
'chicken processor.' :-) He has been reasonable with me.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art Sowerseven if the original WSJ article had a token
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?'John Li' thrown in for 'fairness'.
That doesn't prove anything either. And, you are jumping to conclusions
again about what a name, Li, might mean (actually, nothing).
Sure, as much as everybody else jumps to all kinds of conclusions here.
Including you, since your sentence definitely shows that you were
perceiving "Li" as maybe being indicative of something other than WASP
culture. I'd guess that YOU were guessing that it could be Chinese, but
it was ME that said the name didn't prove anything. So, it was YOU that
jumped to the conclusion.
Perhaps. My bad.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersSecond of all, you might be as upset with "immigrant tallent" just as
you are upset with "immigrant tallent" in the form of US military in
Afghan/Pakiland. And, I know you are upset with US "immigrant tallent"
in Afghan/Paki as well as all of US "immigrant tallent" in any part of
Asia, according to you. So, don't be a hypocrit with me. After all, just
a few years ago, many corporations were replacing US people with cheap
labor foreigners on (slave) H1B visas at low pay. And, the foreigners
loved to get US job experience on their resumes at any cost.
Comparing 'brain' with 'brawn' is not only like comparing apples and
oranges, but is also odious.
First, consider that I was talking to Joshi, not you.
Private conversations are best carried out through e-mail.
Nobody does private email anymore like back in 1990s. My email addresses
were always valid. I only get Nigeria scams in my inbox here, these
days. Everyone but lurkers make all manner of personal remarks right out
in the open. Then, how many put their real names on their posts, too?
Heh, just got a couple of those Nigerian thingies yesterday after a
about a week's break. Well there's one born every minute :-)
Post by Art SowersOne cannot assume
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?a post in a public newsgroup is meant for certain eyes only.
I always look at who an author is responding to to understand the context.
If you can't figure out that Joshi has a very different opinion about me
than you have, and a very different opinion about the USA than you have,
then you have either a very big problem with perception of reality, or
Joshi, because he is an Indian, gets a "free ride" from you. Or both.
Maybe, to you, Indians are really more important than non-Indians, or so
it is coming across to me.
Hmm, no 'free ride' for anyone. It is just that I understand Indians
better than native-born Americans do, and can tell the difference
between plain hostility to 'orneriness'. :-)
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersSecond, why is it OK for Joshi to compare apples and oranges, but not OK
for me to compare apples and oranges? How come Joshi gets from you a
free ride in any "discussion" he has with me, especially when he is also
attacking the USA -- almost constantly -- and you (a US Citizen, now?)
stand by and not "stand by" your _new_ home (of whatever permanence),
which is a "country" for Americans, but just a "home" for foreigners? Or
are you still an "Indian," first, and an "American," second (or maybe
you just see yourself as a voting, taxpaying, working "immigrant"?) and
that's all you need to do.
Like I have always said, I speak for myself and no other. I do not
take sides, and I respect Joshi/Romanise as much as I respect those of
anybody else (Curry Ku and Old Poof are the only two exceptions). I
say Joshi's views are political, and I while I do not agree with
certain views of his, I will not take them personally.
But, its OK for YOU to take something HE digs up but I have doubts about
my participation at the time, and would not sign such a letter today,
and YOU go and make a really big deal out of it?
The one making a real big deal about it is you. Like I said, I am
curious about people's views, esp. ones with whom I have had many an
enlightening conversation. Yeah, that includes Joshi, Ranjit, Rajah,
you, ... and many others. I seek to learn from them, and add value, if
and when possible. Then there are others who are abject phonies - they
don't get a free pass, and I'll gladly get into the gutter to bloody
their nose, with language that is appropriate for lowlifes.
Post by Art SowersEspecially in the face of what I have seen as a very broad brushstroke
of anti-American comments by a vast majority of Indians on these NGs
while you state something along the lines that "its really very little"
or "its because of hostile work environments" and, what the fuck, I can
go do google searches on ethnic conflict in India, so the "hostile
environment" is there in India, too.
Heh, the world over is all the same (mostly), and there is really no
need to 'google' anything.
I do wonder about 'hostile work environments'. It is uncharacteristic of
educated Indians to go out looking for a fight. The anonymity provided
by the internet allows one to pour out frustrations. Now if I were in a
workplace where I was called a 'thief', 'job stealer', 'cheat', ...
24/7, I'd come out swinging too. Anger and frustration with corporate
America is misdirected towards people who have little or no control over
the decision making process.
Post by Art SowersHe has been up front with me about his views, never
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?disrespected me, and has been civil to me.
Yeah, sure looks like the mechanism and process of "Indians sticking up
for other Indians" is definitely in play here. Or, in other words "Joshi
isn't doing anything bad because he doesn't disrespect me," but if he
disrespects me (=ME), then you are looking the other way.
Horse hockey. If Joshi's were a one-sided bash, I'd get on his case too.
However, y'all has thrown back as much as you got.
Post by Art SowersHe too, like most of us, has a
Oh, very funny. Its OK for Joshi to have his hobby horse. But, its not
OK for me to have a hobby horse, eh?
Have I ever told you not to ride it? :-)
Post by Art SowersI don't recall anyone jumping into the fray
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?when 'Hari Kumar' (if that is the real name of the evil wretch) comes
out with some blatant garbage about Hindus being Nazis.
Hari Kumar, if you are reading this, maybe you should "tone down" that
bit about Hindus being Nazis.
And, Mr. Mallu, maybe you could tone down your constant namecalling of
him, too, I've read plenty of YOUR comments directed at HIM and you
might consider looking in the mirror, too, just a tad, once in a while
and consider those Hindu ethics (which Maharaj violates all the time,
not just some of the time) if you are big on being a Hindu.
Don't worry about Curry Ku, and don't get in between. I can take of this
wretch myself. This guy and phony doc are at the same level. In fact,
one might be a sockpuppet of the other.
A third-rate fraud with an axe to grind is handled appropriately. No
need to look in the mirror.
Post by Art SowersAt least I _endorsed_ Hindu ethics when I plaster Maharaj with his
inconsistencies and violation of Hindu ethics, but then he is much much
worse than others (and where are all these good Hindus who ignore
Maharaj?).
Seen that. Thanks.
Post by Art SowersHow come he gets a free
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?pass and a real serious charge, no, a broad smear of Hindus?
See above.
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?You can try any which way to suggest that I am Indian first and
American second. The fact remains that I have worked for this country,
stood behind the politics and views of its leadership once they are
elected to office (party politics cease to matter at that time). I do
not believe I have to take any sort of 'patriotism' test from
_anybody_. Neither will I stand aside and take non-stop 'immigrant
bashing' (subtly based on color).
Yeah, I can see that.
But, I'm still waiting for some understanding that I'm not going to
stand by while I read the anti-American bash from Indians, either.
You've made that clear abundantly, and you've responded appropriately.
Is there something else that you're looking for. As I have said before,
it is a free newsgroup, go for it. However, you should expect reactions
of all kinds, and there isn't much you or I can do about it.
Post by Art SowersAnd, I see that you really are sensitive to the "color issue" since you
also mention it with abundance.
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersHow about you think about that for a few minutes before you answer.
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Are you suggesting that all immigrants to the US wish it harm? Give me
a break! The emphasis in the letter and the response to the article is
fixated on 'cheap', 'slavery', ... One certainly does have a way with
words.
There is plenty of discussion in the media that that is exactly what it
is: cheap, and slavery (H1b restrictions). Yeah, we have chicken
processing plants all around me in my neighborhood. They pay Guatemalans
about $8/hour for work that should be paid $12-15/hour. A lot of them.
And, I follow the school buses around on the roads, as 1/2-2/3 of the
kids getting on and off are Hispanic (getting educated off taxpayers
that pay more taxes than they pay and have less kids than they have). Do
you know what an "anchor baby" is?
I do know what an 'anchor baby' is, thank you. Well educated Indians
here are not exactly 'chicken processing' types,
Yeah, we've had endless posts for years up to maybe 1-2 years ago (esp
on a.c.c) about how: 1. Indians are making more money than average
Americans, 2. Every time an Indian kid graduates with top honors, we
hear about it, and 3. Indians are smarter than Americans, and 4. a lot
of them are Brahmins and very very very proud of that, too. And, all of
that proves or implies that Indians are, somehow, "superior" to Americans.
I am not too big on the 'brag' bit. However, I have no problem with
hearing about American kids of Indian ethnicity doing well and garnering
honors and accolades. It is community thing, and it too passes. No need
to get bent out of shape about achievements of American kids. Go ahead
and post positive stuff about achievements of kids of any kind.
As for the rest of the brag, about money, etc. Mostly vacuous stuff that
often grates. Most of it is about trying bask in the glory, and not
really anything about personal achievement.
Post by Art Sowers(Yeah, I know how Indians consider themselves as above "chicken
processing" types. Come and visit me sometime and I'll drive you around
to all the convenience stores, liquor stores, and doughnut shops run by
Indians that hire--guess what--exclusively other Indians)
Sure there are Apu Chhepeckwalas (Indian equivalent of Joe Six Pack). So
what? Are they involved in the discussions here, or do you think that
Indians involved in discussions here are no better than Apu
Chhepeckwala? Kwik-e-Marts are family run, much like motels (owned by
Patels :-)). Oh, while you're adding to the list there are Indian cab
drivers, mechanics, postal workers, truck drivers, janitors, ... too.
Post by Art SowersIf I had just a nickle for every post that either said that, or implied
it, I could own a big yacht.
I take it that over the 10-15 years you have gained a substantial share
of QM2. :-)
Post by Art Sowersand any comparisons to Guatemalans is
Its a basic fact. It comes out as a statistic from our state government.
Its known. It is quite amazing to see people who are, uniformly, of
smaller build and across the board absolutely 10-12 inches shorter than
everyone else (in addition to dress and facial features, and always black
hair). And, there are basic laws, civil rights issues, etc., that
require that these ethnic/racial breakdowns be recorded.
Almost none of them speak english, have any education, and they also
bring crime into the area that costs extra police effort and the reason
is not that they are criminals, but the exploitation is such that they
have to live in housing at much higher densities than normal and they
just get into personal fights (with knives) just because of the crowding
and disagreements that that generates.
The real guys to go after the slumlords that allow such violation of
housing laws (packing density beyond a recommended maximum).
Post by Art SowersIncidentally not all illegal immigrants are Indians and
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Mexicans. There are probably a good number of illegal Europeans too in
the US.
Did I ever say otherwise? But, there are media reports that Indians are
the fastest growing population of illegals. Why might that be?
Rising demand for liquor stores and donut shops? :-)
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Let's get to the issue of educated immigrants, esp. in the S&E area.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Here is my take of the S&E situation. For any real progress in S&E
there have to be funded graduate research programs. There has to be a
constant churning of ideas. Now it would be great if US universities
were able to attract and retain some of their best undergraduates
within these funded graduate programs. Unfortunately in prosperous
times, with loans to pay off, US-born undergraduates are likely to opt
to join the regular workforce with better pay and perks, instead of
slumming it for a few more years in graduate school with a measly
stipend. This creates a shortfall in the research programs, and one
way to fill these programs is to import the best and brightest from
around the world (yeah, white, yellow, brown, and black). No one in
his/her right mind would pass up such an opportunity. With the kind of
specialized training in some of the best labs on the planet, lots of
imported students (of various different colors) continue on in the US,
thus ensuring that knowledge gained or created remains within the US.
What is wrong with this? I would much rather receive an S&E-focused
reply than something about burrito joints in your neighborhood, and
neither am I interested in anything that is specific to an ethnicity.
I know more about this subject than you since I was in an academic
setting and in a private lab operated on the academic model. I've
written papers that were published in printed periodicals.
Your being in academia does not mean anything to me, neither does your
publication record.
Well, that's a pretty strong statement of prejudicial beligerance and
failure to recognize some of the most stringent work and career
requirements for quality in scholarship that can exist.
Nope it is not. It is an attempt to deflate the ego and stop the
patronizing tone. I am not a 'chicken processor' you're talking with
(not to :-)), I have seen as much of US academia as you have, and I have
as many accomplishments as you have. So size does not matter. Set aside
the accomplishments brag, and get down to discussing the real issue.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Neither of these addresses what I wrote about S&E in the US, and how
the graduate schools have a large percentage of foreign students. I
went through grad school here myself and did have a good inside look
when I was in school. The issue is why US graduate schools cannot find
applicants from within the country, and why does it need to constantly
woo foreign students.
This "issue" has several components that you are not aware of. First, it
has been known, but not widely, for several recent decades that the US
is overproducing PhDs even in science. In a few engineering fields, the
overproduction is less serious, but its still there. There really are
not enough jobs. I can cite references.
The overproduction is easily taken care of by turning off the money
supply in the appropriate fields. No funded research means no graduate
program. No graduate program means no foreign graduate students here.
Fewer potential immigrants, what?
Post by Art SowersSecond, it is better known that S&E jobs are being exported to 3rd world
(US labs have been shut down or shrunk over the last 2 decades, and
companies build labs in the 3rd world). I have told everyone born in the
USA that they need to look at that before they make a 4-8 year graduate
school commitment and build up debt, then end up in a temporary job with
relatively low pay (eg. postdocs), and the job can end at any time. I
know lots of people who also advise their own kids to not pursue
graduate school because of the applicant glut. etc.
Just so you know, I absolutely despise the term '3rd world'. There is
one beautiful world, and we all live on it. Let us get past the
pejoratives and discuss about the US and India. Period.
Who gets the benefits of the research done by US labs in India? How many
US outfits have research labs in India? IBM, GE, Micro$oft, TI? How many
are in China?
Post by Art SowersThird, the worker replacement programs (yes, you beautiful immigrants)
where the "prejudice" really is in favor of hiring those exploitable
(for lower pay, restrictive visas) "brown skin" geniuses who get trained
by the Americans and at the end of the training program, the American
gets laid off (permanetly) and the Indian gets the job for the
forseeable future and gets that work experience on their resumes which
helps with future employability.....and I am supposed to not get mad
over this, and Americans
who get laid off are not supposed to get mad, and we're supposed to love
all immigrants and hand over our country, as a "free ride" on a silver
platter, with big smiles on our faces. And, there are plenty of
references for this, too. Just google on "H1b abuse".
'Geniuses' in any region on the planet are far and few between. Don't
get taken in by the 'brag'. You should get mad about outsourcing and
H1bs, but this is not the place to get mad about it. You need to get mad
about it with people who matter, and people who make policy.
Post by Art SowersFourth, the main imperitive of our graduate schools is based on the
"imperialist" mission of institutional expansion, at all costs. Since
govt granting agencies keep expanding their budgets (DoD, NSF, NIH, ONR,
DoE, etc), the institutions keep expanding their programs with more and
more staff on "soft money". Buildings get built, campus empires expand,
and tenrue-track jobs diminish in proportion to total jobs, and --except
for a few areas--S&E jobs are more temporary now than ever before.
Postdoc positions, whether they go to a foreigner or an American, are
still slave labor and eveyone knows this. I went through it myself.
Time to clip the budgets of govt. granting institutions. Most of these
are as bad as government institutions in India - white elephants staffed
with mediocre people.
Post by Art SowersNo foreign graduate student will pass up the chance to study/work
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?in fantastic labs on offer in the US. Why are they to blame for
accepting any grad. scholarships? After that much investment in them,
what is wrong if they continue to live in the country and help it in S&E?
Experience in the USA is a big pile of gold for anyone from anywhere but
Europe or Japan. Its a ticket to better chances for future employement,
either in the USA or back home.
Yes, that is called 'branding'. Brand USA still works around the world,
esp. in the area of S&E. Too bad that a blinkered government gave away
manufacturing on a platter to China, and that too for short-term
political gain.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersYour whole paragraph is fixated on the contents of a letter: i) I'm not
even sure I gave permission for my name to be used, ii) and certainly
barely relevant to my current or past views on S&E careers, iii)
certainly without the knowledge I have of a number of people whose name
is on that letter as well as the circumstances of the association of
those people, and iv) of course you never asked me if I still agreed
with the ideas expressed in the letter, or even if I really did sign it.
You don't have to be asked, do you?
Since you jumped on this, without asking me, then it is my position that
you really are carrying out a kangaroo court case against me.
Horse hockey!
Post by Art SowersIf you have changed your mind since the
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?letter appeared in print, you could have said so way back before the lecture.
I did not fully realize that what Joshi and YOU were doing here was NOT
to understand the background about the letter, or my comments on it, but
to castigate me as some kind of blanket racist "anti-immigrant" and as if
immigration does not present ANY component problems for Americans and we
Americans are supposed to perceive all immigrants with open arms, hugs,
and kisses.
Horse hockey, again. I appreciate your attempt to explain your position
on the letter for sure. However, the explanation comes with some amount
of baggage, but in a tone that is somewhat patronizing. Do you really
expect all 'immigrants' to the US to be 'boat people' getting away from
some oppressive regime or another? The US has been good and welcoming to
'boat people' and to others as well.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersThird, the background arguing that went on over the wording of that
letter, and the reasons why some people even signed it is beyond the
scope of any discussion we are going to have here, and -- believe me --
I am the much better expert at what is/was going on here than you or
your major fear of xenophobia (since I also know that foreigners coming
to the USA for anything consider the USA as something like a big "cash
cow" or "pie" but unfortunately there is not enough pie in the USA for
the whole world, despite the fact that the US economy is already funding
the jobs of 100-200 million foreigners in their own lands, as well as
that large number of foreigners in the USA illegally (of course you
would find it hard to admit the US does anything but damage around the
world, but what I said is true. You just look at our trade deficit and
that is the amount of excess _net_ [repeat, "net capital"] capital
flowing to 3rd world countries to build them up, including India). And,
since that is _net_ OUT of the USA, then it is not available to the US
economy to recover from this recession we are having. Big free ride to
India/China/etc.
It is plain bad attitude to think that everyone views the US as a 'cash cow'
And, lets ask again, why you came to the USA? Why you didn't go back to
India? Do you like it here? What exactly would be your feelings if your
job got shipped to India, next week?
Like I said (gets tiring after a while),
You're the one who was making a big deal out of this.
the lab facilities, the openness,
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?the freedom to be what one wants to be, ... Heck, to contribute one's
mite to something useful. Not one of things is available in India, and
require some effort to build up.
I'm still not hearing, here, from you, about any compassion for anyone
other than yourself.
I do work in my own little community. I am supposed to 'brag' about this
to earn brownie points? I will not. What I do and whom I help is my
business, and I do it without expecting any recognition or monetary
gain. I'd like it to remain that way. You're absolutely wrong that
Indian immigrants here have no social conscience, and not all of them
are donors to the VHP/RSS/...
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?I am not in the IT sector, if that is what you are implying about jobs
going to India. Heck, if I a saw the job transfer as an opportunity to
get closer cooperation between two great countries, I'd take it.
Bottom line, I'll ship myself with the job. :-)
Nice platitudes, but you're not answering my question, either.
If my job were to ship overseas, I'll still land on my feet - I have
many skill sets that I can rely to find other work within the US.
As for platitudes, I am not different than the rest that spout the same
here. I used to think that the mindset of stating the problem and having
someone else figure out the solution was peculiarly Indian. I hadn't
encountered that amongst Americans, at least not in the workplace. Hmm,
looks like this newsgroup is no better.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersLets be honest: I've seen the discussion from the Japanese viewpoint
which spilled out into our media some two decades ago. Yes, that is
exactly how they think of the USA (in addition to their view that we are
racially inferior to themselves [with references I can give]).
Lets be honest about China's view: "Oh, goody, we can devalue our
currency and play the USA for 'cash cow' and it worked" (more references
available).
Why -- lets be honest -- do people love to come to the USA? We have the
money and the standard of living. Its not because they _love_ the
country. There are even people who make their money here, and then just
"up and fly" back to "real" home to retire.
The damned 'immigrants' (not H1b, L1, ...) that strike roots here have
done no such thing as upping and leaving. I resent that attitude and
like to be spared a 'patriotism' lecture. India has the same kind of
nonsense, which every guy and his brother here love to tee off on as
being obnoxious. Cannot have it both ways. My rule of thumb, anyone
who makes an ostentatious display of patriotism or wears his/her heart
on his/her sleeve is really insecure about either.
Its OK, your materialistic interests in the USA were well and accurately
stated a few paragraphs above. Especially significant in Joshi's context
stating "USA = bad" and "India was always innocent [of any bad things],"
too.
You think that no one should have 'materialistic interests'? That ranks
up there with the usual Indian self-righteous claptrap about 'money
being dirty'. The ideal thing is convergence of one's personal interests
with those of the job.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?and that everyone is in for a 'free ride'. Do you think that
'immigrants' just kind of laze about and pull down a paycheck for
doing nothing? I am sure they work, I know I do (and I'm a 'brown'
immigrant).
I can cite studies where a pretty big fraction of those immigrants
really do suck up more in services than they pay in taxes, so on that
objective ground, they really are getting a bargain. Subsidized life not
available to US-born people.
I am sure there are all kinds of studies with all kinds of results
that can be spun as needed. We are talking about S&E folks and not the
indigent and illegals. The latter is really a congressional issue, and
there seems to be no will to solve the problem, thus inviting the
current vigilantism.
Yeah. I'm really warmed over by the worker replacement programs in
general IT. Hundreds of thousands of American IT workers were "replaced"
about 4-6 years ago.
S&E is a different matter.
Now you need to warm over your congressional rep. to plug loopholes in
the existing laws.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersI will be damned if I
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?let anyone demean honest labor, esp. mine.
Oh, so now we're getting a little testy, now, are we?
Yes, because you imply all the time that 'immigrants' get out much
more ('free ride') than they put in. Well, they don't, at least not
the ones that stay back, pay taxes, and vote, and certainly not the
ones that I know.
Since I don't know exactly what you do, and I don't know exactly "your
friend" immigrants really are, I cannot fully judge.
This and that and everything in between. My friend 'immigrants' are from
all racial backgrounds.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersI'll be damned if US CEOs wake up one day and say "Oh, look, we can lay
off 20,000 Americans and hire 20,000 H1bs and save ($10,000 times 20,000
[at least]= 200 million bucks), and my stock options will go up 50%."
One last time, work with your congressional reps. to put an end to the
H1b program. It does not help to keep bashing people who can do very
little or little or no knowledge of who they are displacing when they
take the job offer.
I'm sorry, but if they were not there, then there would not be this
problem. The same problem exists in Europe (with Muslims from N Africa,
Turkey, etc) and even Russia (with immigrants from the former republics)
We'll let the Europeans take care of their own problems.
Post by Art SowersHowever, I will not support the idea of locking the US up from legal
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?immigration (at much reduced levels) to come here, settle, and work
for this country. New blood, new ideas is what this country has always
been about, and several 'immigrants' have had great breaks here in S&E.
And, I will not support the excuse that employers "can't find" employees
when what they really want is "employees at what the employers want to
pay them" or that they are on restrictive visas to cut down on job-hopping.
If there really is a shortage, then fine. Take what you want.
The facts are out there: Microsoft only hires one percent of their job
applicants. That does not mean there is a shortage of workers.
Companies get picky about the quality of the people they hire. I heard
Google has strange hiring practices too.
Are you suggesting that Micro$oft (or any other company for that matter)
simply hire anyone and everyone for a job. The best strategy for US
companies would have been to flood US universities with scholarships,
and use US universities as a farm system to staff the company (much like
baseball). I don't know how many of them do so, and if they do, how much
is ploughed into 'second tier' (i.e., non-Ivy League ;-)) colleges.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersOr, I'll be damned if TATA, WIPRO, etc., take some money, buys up some
little companies in the USA, lays off the Americans so they can bring
over Indians on L visas (no caps on those), pays them less too, and then
calls itself an "American office" creating "American" jobs, and then
with lower costs underbids for IT work.
This a ripe for public litigation. If you've got the goods on TCS,
WIPRO, and Infosys, by gum, haul them off to court. Surely the
immigration folks here do monitor these guys for any shenanigans, and
I am sure there are enough lawyers chomping at the bit saying, 'I have
wanted a piece of them for years.'
The laws on this are weak, and the enforcement is just slowly coming
around to do something about it. eg. the raised visa fees which clearly
cuts back on the cost advantage of hiring H1bs, and that is the whole
crux of outsourcing: save costs. I hope you don't think the managers and
executives are working cheaper, too.
Good that the fees went up to make certain options less attractive. I am
not under any illusion that exec pay packets are small. Are there new
laws to cap exec salaries, along with penalties for screwing up? Greedy
shareholders ain't going to buy that.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersAnd, the free ride is the work experience on the resume so that anytime
they go looking for a job, there will be one laid-off American who has
no work experience for X years, but the H1B shows that X years. Big free
ride to job security. Or did you ever think about that?
Horse hockey that H1b folks have 'job security' when the visa has a
time limit on it.
I have even seen job advertisements two or more years ago and going
back, on a.c.c that say "Only H1b need apply." Get your job experience
on your resume, you're in demand.
I am not H1b unfortunately (for both you and me).
Post by Art SowersThe work experience in the US may make for a resume pad back
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?where these folks came from. Did you expect the person to list under
experience, 'X years in IT company ABC. X years of experience at the
expense of a true blue American (laid off soon after I joined) with 2X
experience in the same company'
I even had a Chinese girl in my lab who was so happy to so easily get
computer jobs in the USA. They even called me on the telephone to ask
how she was and I gave her the push. This was all about the time that
the IT job market started closing up for Americans.
Why did you hire a Chinese girl or an Indian guy in your lab? I assume
these were fresh off the boat 'immigrants' or were the born in the USA?
Post by Art SowersAnd, it was sad to read email from laid off Americans who were working
up to 20 years in some IT fields, without ever having trouble finding a
job, and all of a sudden they were sending out 1,000 resumes and not
getting even any interviews.
IT is a highly overrated field, but for some reason lots of money is
locked up in there, at the expense of S&E.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersIn S&E, not only is knowledge
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?captured within the US, the goddamn 'immigrants' (including me) work
their tails off, contribute to this country, and guard their IP quite
carefully.
And, you think the laid off Americans didn't do any of that, eh? And,
they got laid off, too?
Give me some examples of S&E folks that got replaced by 'free ride'
lazy ass immigrants.
Not lazy assed, but cheap. Sorry, I don't have time to give the long
story, but you can google it if you're more interested in the horror
stories.
I am sure there are, but no thanks, there is only so much time to devote
to all problems.
Post by Art SowersI'm more interested in "Hindu war gods".... :-)
Cool. I can now invoke them without a problem with my newly patented
device :-)
Post by Art SowersAnd, I've just finished the book on the history of Afghanistan. Ordered
one now on the history of Pakistan.
Still reading Ms.Chaterji's book. Time on the newsgroup takes time off
from chores and reading.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?What the devil is flowing out? It is corporate America that 'cheats',
'steals', 'lies', and so do the greedy stockholders (ranging from Joe
Six Pack to Jack Abramoff) of such outfits.
Well, THANK YOU, very much, for THAT.
How many 'immigrants' in the field of
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?S&E were involved in Countrywide, Enron, ...?
Oh, maybe now I need to make a FAQ that names quite a few, or since
you're a smart guy, maybe you can use google and do google search
<"immigrant" & "IP theft"> and show yourself that 'immigrants' are not
anymore above various crimes than anyone else.
I am not interested in the brave new world of Google - information
overload and sometimes meaningless results (usually websites with axes
to grind). I'd like good books/printouts, thank you.
Oh, so now all that great American technology has some defects, eh? ;-)
The technology is great for searching, but the spin on the results makes
it not so great. :-)
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersSo, your one line subject sentence just shows you are part of the
mindset that looks at American pie as belonging to anyone who can "take"
it and get away with "taking" it. And, of course, according to you, US
people are not supposed to get mad.
US people have to get mad, but at the right targets, and not at people
who post here.
Why don't you 'pick on' Joshi, who got all the wrong ideas from that
letter, and then I made honest comments (which were not enough for you).
Joshi has his views, and I have mine. I'll deal with his political
views when appropriate. However, the letter and its contents are the
issue of discussion right now.
Yeah, its pretty clear that it was YOUR interests in the issue and not
MY interests in the issue that were important.
Heh, MINE first (obviously) and YOURs too.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersI'll also challenge you to show me where, ever, I have made a _blanket_
and across-the-board anti-immigrant statement. And, for the record, I
think if any born-in-America American wants to be anti-immigrant, then
that is his perogative just as much as immigrants come to the USA and
then decide that any and all immigration is good for the USA (and to
hell with the people who were born here, grew up, worked, voted, paid
the taxes, and obeyed the laws, too, and then fight the anti-native
hiring discrimination by the companies that just want cheap labor).
In a nation formed by immigrants (not all Americans who post here are
Mayflower types), who gets to decide how many generations it takes for
the 'immigrant' label to wash off. After all, lots of people who post
here are probably 1st/2nd/3rd gen. immigrants. Most are first gen, but
the swastika signature lunatic, anon..., is probably second gen.
You didn't answer the question I asked in my first sentence above.
I didn't answer it because the answer was obvious. However, I'll restate
it. I am _not_ interested in any fishing expeditions or digging dirt.
If, however, you want to wash your linen here, I've got no problems.
Post by Art SowersUm... I wonder how many generations the Aryan Invaders of India pass
before the "immigrant" label wears off and some Indians stop thinking
about the name of the country being "Hindustan"?
Oh, ...OK...that doesn't count, eh?
Firstly, there was no Aryan 'invasion', except in the minds of a few.
Secondly, until the Brits showed up, all invaders did integrate into
Indian society, and called themselves 'Hindustanis'. The Brits were a
new kind of 'invader' that never integrated into Indian society. In fact
they worked very actively to destroy it, to the point where people who
called themselves Hindustanis considered themselves to be 'extra
special'. Old geezers still think of India as Hindustan (not in the
sense of a religious identity, but as a commonly accepted term), but
anyone and everyone post-independence refers to India as Bharat.
However, there is the occasional evil nazi who'll claim that
Hindustan/Hindustani are 'official' terms - these are mostly Pakis.
There are also right wing kooks who'll spell the name most vedically as
'Hindusthan' (that second h is really really really important).
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersAnd, have you ever looked at the anti-American statements, made by
immigrants (particularly Indians), passing over these NGs for the last
5-10 years. Or, are they supposed to get a free ride, there, too, but
Americans are just supposed to be silent and let the shit and piss flow
down on them?
I also served my country with time in the US military. Did you serve in
any military?
To return the favor, do you expect me to pin a medal on you for that,
that too for a stateside desk job? What is my 'military service' got
to do with S&E issues?
Well, you were making a big deal out of voting. And, the whole issue of
those "favors" done for America by immigrants: sure looks like the only
reason was they came "for the money."
You're making a big deal of your military service, and that too a
non-combat one. Now I am little curious about this. For one that usually
writes about 'overlings' and 'underlings', how did you handle the
military, which is all about command and control? Were you an officer
(overling) then?
Do all Americans work for 'free' and think that money is 'dirty'? That
is an usual Indian attitude for an American.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersYou cannot claim helplessness when it comes to influencing the US
The only time we got influence on US govt policy, in the last 40+ years,
is when the protest by the people of this country over Viet Nam caused a
president to announce that he would not seek nor accept the nomination
for another term and that led to a pullout from Viet Nam.
Mass protest is not the only way to influence government decisions. It
is best to set aside party politics and work with the elected
representative. Some of the older ones are usually non-partisan and do
genuinely work for the people they represent. These are people who can
be reasoned with, and are likely to move ideas forward. It is simply
wrong to take an antagonistic position, and then claim helplessness to
change anything.
I've read books on this.
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?The newer generation is all about themselves and what they can milk by
being elected. Some of the ones in California are corrupt - no other
word to describe the attempt to buy political office without ever
having participated in the political process.
I hate to tell you this, but there really isn't much difference between
young and old. Maybe worse today, because of the corruption.
Agreed.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersYou are welcome name and list any other times that "the people" got
anything they really wanted and I'll think about it.
I'm still waiting for an answer to this.
Dunno. Will have to dig to see if there are any. However, it would help
if you consulted your vast library to move things along.
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art Sowersand at the same time bash 'immigrants' (most likely
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Asians - yellow and brown). 'Immigrants' are doubly damned - they have
no influence on the policies of governments of countries they are
emigrating from, and neither do have any influence on the policies of
the government of the US, the country they are immigrating to. So what
is the 'real' beef?
You forgot, already, that an inflow of labor really does cause wages to
go down. Its in the economics books. Business interests in the USA
really go out of their way to increase this because it lowers their
costs. US-born people who get laid off or replaced (and who also paid
taxes, worked, vote, etc) by the immigrant are victims of
discrimination, which is permitted as lawyers exploit loopholes in the
laws and lobbyists promote loopholes in the laws.
So is the solution then to shut down all immigration?
No, but do you think immigration should not be controled for any reason
or reasons? Do you think YOUR analysis of immigrant contributions is the
only analysis that is valid?
Never made either of those claims. Immigration should be controlled, but
not completely abolished - something you seem to be suggesting, and that
too to an 'immigrant' :-) Immigrants have made contributions to the US.
This much is true, unless some 'immigrants' are considered lesser than
some other 'immigrants' with commensurately less contribution (the Old
Poof surely has a list).
Post by Art SowersRemember, we are
Post by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?talking S&E folks and not IT folks.
How about we talk about ALL "immigrating" folks, not just limit the
discussion to your favorite buddies?
Buddies, by definition, are favorites, so need for redundancy. I do have
lots of buddies that don't post here. I also have a few friends (and
lots of enemies, I'm sure :-)) here on the newsgroup. You want to have a
very broad discussion, but I don't. I like bite size problems that I
think can be discussed in a focused manner, before making the solution
fit into the larger jigsaw. There are only 24 hours in a day, and I
ain't retired (yet :-)) to hold forth all day. Sorry!
Post by Art SowersPost by Myself, Mallu. Yourself?Post by Art SowersAs I've said before, the USA is a "republic" on the surface, and a
plutocracy below the surface. All that "democracy" means is that there
are term limits on the representatives, but the people really don't even
control who gets to run for office.
This is a rather dim view, and one that I do not share with you
unfortunately.
Its a realistic view. Somewhere around 1900, the USA started immigration
control, put laws on the books, set up procedures...all in recognition
of problems caused by immigration and consideration of what the country
needs rather than what foreigners want. How those procedures, laws, and
interpretations have changed, quota and cap figures are adjusted, and
the ultimate outcomes affect people's lives is being much more intensely
debated by people other than me.
But, I'll end this with a final question for you: Besides yourself (and
Arindam Banerjee who has actually made a few comments here, praising
some but not all of things about the USA), what Indian/Hindu can you
name that has said, here on these NGs, more positive than negative
things about the USA?
Are you looking for Hindus only or will Indians do? If it is Indians,
I'd say Rajah has done that, who is perhaps of Indian ethnicity, but not
a Hindu. If it Hindus (brahmins really) whose reactions you're looking
for, then I might have pre-empted all that. My new device is flying off
the shelves and keeping them busy invoking 'war gods' (there are no
reports yet of their wives committing 'sati'). :-)
--
VB
'ome=shanty